MP allegedly greeted a party colleague at German parliament building ‘with a heel click and a Hitler salute’
Berlin prosecutors say they have charged a member of the far-right Alternative für Deutschland party with making a Nazi salute in parliament.
The suspect allegedly “greeted a party colleague … at the east entrance to the Reichstag building with a heel click and a Hitler salute” in June 2023, the prosecutors said in a statement issued on Monday.
Making such a salute is illegal in Germany and is punishable by up to three years in prison.
The newspaper Bild named the politician as Matthias Moosdorf, 60, a member of parliament for Zwickau in the former East German state of Saxony.
No good comes from this. This is the equivalent threatening or intending for violence.
And yet, I’m told by another user, a free speech absolutist, that this is absolutely normal and should be protected.
It’s always those you suspect the most
They forgot they’re not at home.
They don’t charge you for doing the hitler salute in 'merica no more. Some glorify it.
As they did last time
Sauce https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/nazi-town-usa-scenes-summer-camp-nazi-town-us/
arrest them all. dissolve the party. explain this to the people that AfD is compromised by Russia to undermine Germany.
Just use the words “They are a national security threat,” and you can pretty much do whatever needs to be done.
Nazis are Nazis, you don’t need external interference claims (not questioning the claim itself) to arrest them all and dissolve the party. The reality is that this only gets done to leftist parties in Europe.
that would just make them martyrs.
It’s called Defensive Democracy
Nonsense. Conservatives don’t do martyrdom well, because they don’t really care about other people, even their colleagues. They appreciate the initial outrage that the martyrdom causes, but creating and maintaining a martyr requires dedication and constant hyping of the martyrdom, and conservatives just don’t have it in them to care about anyone else that much.
Also, when it’s bad guys that get wiped out, people like that.
no it won’t. that’s just an excuse to do nothing and continue to let manchurian candidates undermine the country.
i’m so sick and tired of this bullshit, faux-wisdom that we can do nothing about these problems and not enforce our laws, so just let these ppl run free to ruin everything. that’s just more propaganda from our enemies.
Embroider this on a pillow for the ages.
I generally get the reasoning behind the whole martyr thing but it just doesn’t work in this case. The individual is 1) in the country where the Nazis came to power in the first place, 2) is a member of parliament, 3) has now demonstrated that they wish to bring back the ideology which caused multiple genocides, the 2nd world war and the complete destruction of Europe. There’s “they are minuscule minority and have zero chance of gaining traction and so we only stand to lose by making them a martyr” and “they are already in parliament and part of a party that is the thinnest of veils for the Nazi party and are doing so in the backdrop of the rising popularity of the AFD and far-right politicians around the world”. No! This lesson has been learned in Germany. Knock the fucker down (put them in jail) and show no remorse. They don’t deserve a benefit of the doubt or leniency here.
No! This lesson has been learned in Germany.
This lesson was learned by the entire world! The problem is that the good people won, and we’re all so polite that we have even let the biggest enemy of the last century gain strength and rise again.
We need to learn the lessons of history and our mistakes and our experience, and stop being so polite to people who have made it very clear that they intend to enslave and murder us.
From the guys Wikipedia page:
“In 2024 Moosdorf accepted a part-time honorary professor position at Gnessin Russian Academy of Music in Moscow.
The school, financed by Russia’s culture ministry, made headlines just days after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, when a staff member performed a concert wearing a black sweatshirt with the letter “Z” on it, which symbolizes support for Moscow’s war.
“Music knows no ideological boundaries,” Moosdorf wrote on Facebook, adding that accepting the professorship is “a sign of understanding.”
“I want to give the young people there [in Russia] the feeling that they are not left behind in Europe,” Moosdorf said. He added that he spent three days in Moscow in September to give an inaugural lecture and plans to go back a few days every quarter to teach chamber music”
Seems like a reeeaaal nice guy huh /s
Music knows no ideological boundaries
What even does that mean? It’s fine to say or whatever you want, as long as you can put it in some musical context?
Imma write a jolly song then to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, with the chorus being “Murder, murder all dictators × 3 / Sic temper Tyrannis”, see how happy they are to ignore that one.
I’m guessing he’s talking orchestral music with no lyrics. But “___ is not ideological” or “___ is not political” is exactly the sort of thing people say about stuff that is constantly political. It seems like he was just bought by Russia.
“___ is not political” just pairs nicely with “I’m not into politics”. The perfect excuse to hold a political stance while also ignoring all the other political issues: moving the target so it matches where you hit.
Why does it take in excess of 2 years to trial someone? Broken system
You can have a fair and equitable court system, or you can have a fast one; rarely if ever both. True justice tends to be slow and steady and helps to account for public witch-hunts and reduce risk of someone innocent being. People always say, “Yeah well this one is obvious!” but that’s not how justice works. It must be absolute. It must be there for the lowest of hanging fruit if it is to be there for the more nuanced cases just the same.
On the other hand, sadly, a slow and unfair one are not mutually-exclusive.
I’d prioritize violent offenses first, but also you do not know the details. Obviously the prosecution wants to assure they have an iron clad case when pursing a charge against a political figure. This is to ensure they are not accused of bias. The offense was 2 years ago, but you don’t know how long the investigation was. Also there are multiple ways for lawyers to delay trials. This is necessary to assure the accused get their full right to legal counsel. Also by giving the defense time it reduces the likelihood of mistakes that could be used to make an appeal.
So yeah lots of reasons
He was stupid enough to show it. The rest of that pack is not a iota better.
This post includes misinformation. Bild is not a newspaper.
While “Bild” is actually a horrible rag worth being published in England, this does not change the fact that AfD members are Nazis. And one was stupid enough to show it in the open.
Nazis doing a Nazi salute. Wow. So shocking.
Good job Germany. You’re giving platforms to your own past shame in the freaking government, and covering for their modern counterparts (Israel) in the same breath.
He got charged… Meaning it’s not ok and illegal
Yeah, but the political party this one person comes from (and exemplifies) is gaining ground rapidly in the German government.
Maybe then the problem is the people?
That’s how I took it when they said “Good job Germany.”
Should be punishable by firing squad.
Germany abolished the death penalty and for good reason.
You should never give the state the right to execute its own citizens
I would normally agree with you, but the paradox of tolerence comes to mind.
Just because you’re not willing to kill someone doesn’t mean you’re tolerating their behavior.
This is quite literally a post about this guy being charged with a crime. If he’s in prison for 3 years that’s going to derail his politics.
The state could also ban the AFD and probably should.
We don’t have to jump straight to capital punishment
A very reasonable take, in unreasonable times.
The state could also ban the AFD and probably should.
I guarentee they will regret not having done so sooner.
I have voted against the abolition of the death penality in Hesse back in 2018 (if i remember correctly) when there was a public vote on that matter… you never know when it may become handy…
It will never be handy. You should never trust the state to have that power over its citizens. There’s not a country on the planet I trust with that authority.
The death penalty, especially for political offenses, always seems nice when its your side in power.
If you reject the states power to execute it’s own citizens and make that idea unacceptable to the people then you take away one of the fascists’ best tools for oppressing the people.
The death penalty, especially for political offenses, always seems nice when its your side in power.
When “our side” is no longer in power, “they” might introduce the death penalty. What’s to stop “them”, once they are in control? Our good faith?
Limits on state power do not reliably prevent bad governments from abusing it, because bad governments can and do weaken and circumvent those limits. Are constitutional limits meaningfully stopping Trump? Did they keep Putin from the presidency?
In my view, this logic is another case of “when they go low, we go high”. The only reliable way to prevent the abuse of state power is to keep those who would abuse state power from attaining it in the first place.
If you reject the states power to execute it’s own citizens and make that idea unacceptable to the people then you take away one of the fascists’ best tools for oppressing the people.
Execution may be unacceptable to some of us, but –crucially– it is acceptable to those who would most abuse it, and they will cheer its reintroduction.
When “our side” is no longer in power, “they” might introduce the death penalty. What’s to stop “them”, once they are in control? Our good faith?
You can’t live your life by becoming worse than what those you fear may become. Honestly this is the rhetoric fascists use.
But to engage the point, you do this by making the death penalty something the populace opposes. If it becomes unthinkable a “non-starter” that’s a good thing.
Execution may be unacceptable to some of us, but –crucially– it is acceptable to those who would most abuse it, and they will cheer its reintroduction.
Then make the idea so repugnant only a minority of a minority of people would be okay with it.
Honestly I don’t get your argument. It’s basically you should be afraid that those people over there will kill you so you must kill them first. I think we’ve heard that one before…
As times are now use the systems in place that will prevent the rise of the AFD. If the fascists take control then feel free to start killing fascists. Be sure to be early, but you do that after the systems failed.
It’s like they haven’t even tried to disband the party and it’s jumping straight to murder. That’s not a nation anyone would want to live in
You propose to instill a deep conviction –that the death penalty is unacceptable– in a broad majority of people:
[…] you do this by making the death penalty something the populace opposes.
Then make the idea so repugnant only a minority of a minority of people would be okay with it.
How?
You put it like we haven’t tried. You put it like we can somehow do it. That contradicts current trends: political violence in particular and violence more broadly are becoming more and more acceptable again.
If the fascists take control then feel free to start killing fascists.
By then it will be far too late.
As times are now use the systems in place that will prevent the rise of the AFD. If the fascists take control then feel free to start killing fascists. Be sure to be early, but you do that after the systems failed.
The system and all its guardrails are actively failing before your eyes and have been for over a decade at this point. In fact, the system –capitalism– isn’t really failing, but simply succumbing to its own contradictions and evolving into its next stage: fascism.
It’s basically you should be afraid that those people over there will kill you so you must kill them first.
No. It’s neither fear nor hate. It’s not a tribal proposition either. It’s an instrument of last resort to preserve our chance of building a fair system.
