“The DPRK successfully weathered the Arduous March in the 90s.”
This is arguably the most insane sentence in your post. Estimates range from 600,000 to 3 million deaths during that famine. A state that cannot feed its people to the point where 5-10% of the population starves to death has not “successfully weathered” anything; it has failed its most basic function. Framing mass starvation as “resilience” against US imperialism is incredibly disrespectful to the victims of that regime’s mismanagement.
“The North is seeing real growth and an optimistic mood… They are building a resilience that the South… completely lacks.”
Where is this data coming from?
South Korea GDP: ~$1.7 Trillion (13th in the world)
North Korea GDP: ~$25 Billion (roughly the size of Vermont’s economy)
Even with “growth” from selling artillery shells to Russia, the average North Korean lives on a fraction of the income of a South Korean. You talk about the “dirt spoon” class in the South—the poorest South Korean still has access to modern medicine, the internet, and a caloric intake that the average North Korean does not.
You are correctly identifying the symptoms of late-stage capitalism in the South (inequality, demographic collapse), but your proposed cure is worse than the disease. Pointing out that the South is a stressful “rat race” doesn’t change the fact that the North is an impoverished authoritarian state.
There is a reason 34,000 people have defected from North to South, and basically zero have gone the other way. People vote with their feet.
This is arguably the most insane sentence in your post. Estimates range from 600,000 to 3 million deaths during that famine. A state that cannot feed its people to the point where 5-10% of the population starves to death has not “successfully weathered” anything; it has failed its most basic function. Framing mass starvation as “resilience” against US imperialism is incredibly disrespectful to the victims of that regime’s mismanagement.
What part of the north having been dependent on the trade that the US cut them off from are you struggling with there? Most of the arable land land is in the south, and DPRK had to figure out how to produce food in the mountains. The fact that you call that mismanagement exposes that you’re a just a troll.
Where is this data coming from?
From the fact that people are actually having children in DPRK unlike in the south
Trying to use GDP to measure the quality of the economy is sheer idiocy and no serious economist would suggest doing that. In fact, GDP was never meant to do that.
Even with “growth” from selling artillery shells to Russia, the average North Korean lives on a fraction of the income of a South Korean.
People in DPRK have guaranteed housing, jobs, food, healthcare, and public transportation. None of these things are available to people in the south by default. Measuring income without accounting for the cost of living further illustrates just how utterly unequipped you are to discuss the subject you’re attempting to debate here.
There is a reason 34,000 people have defected from North to South, and basically zero have gone the other way. People vote with their feet.
“What part of the north having been dependent on the trade that the US cut them off from are you struggling with there? Most of the arable land land is in the south, and DPRK had to figure out how to produce food in the mountains. The fact that you call that mismanagement exposes that you’re a just a troll.”
This is a spectacular attempt to shift blame. No serious historian blames the US trade embargo for the famine’s death toll.
The Cause of Death: The Soviet collapse (their main sponsor) and catastrophic internal mismanagement (specifically, the centrally planned Juche farming system) were the real killers. Food was hoarded for the military and elite in Pyongyang while regional populations starved.
Arable Land is a Red Herring: Yes, the South has more fertile land, but the North’s system of collectivization and its reliance on chemical fertilizers (which stopped coming from the USSR) led to soil depletion and systemic failure. The regime’s insistence on self-sufficiency (Juche) over efficient trade is the definition of mismanagement, regardless of US sanctions.
“From the fact that people are actually having children in DPRK unlike in the south… Since the early 1990s, the birth rate has been fairly stable, with an average of 2 children per woman…”
This is cherry-picking the least bad statistic to deflect from a humanitarian disaster.
Fact Check: A birth rate of 2.0 is right on the cusp of replacement level, which is better than the ROK’s 0.72. You are right about that number.
The Crucial Context: A stable birth rate doesn’t mean a healthy population. North Korea faces chronic malnutrition, which leads to stunting and long-term health issues in its young population. The quality of life for those children is drastically lower than for those in the South. A starving population that maintains its birth rate is not an economic win; it’s a social tragedy.
“Trying to use GDP to measure the quality of the economy is sheer idiocy and no serious economist would suggest doing that. In fact, GDP was never meant to do that.”
This is a classic defensive move when your system has an objectively pathetic GDP.
GDP and GDP per Capita are the standard, baseline metrics for comparing economic output. While they don’t capture happiness or inequality perfectly (that’s what the Human Development Index, HDI, is for), they absolutely measure the size of the pie a country has to divide.
HDI Check: When you use the HDI (which accounts for life expectancy, education, and standard of living), South Korea ranks high (usually top 25). North Korea’s data is so poor and unreliable that it is often excluded, but estimates place it among the lowest in the world, comparable to Sub-Saharan Africa.
“People in DPRK have guaranteed housing, jobs, food, healthcare, and public transportation. None of these things are available to people in the south by default.”
This is outright false. The DPRK guarantees these things on paper, but the quality is nonexistent for the vast majority of the population:
Food: Food security is a yearly crisis. “Guaranteed food” often means a subsistence ration (if that).
Housing: Housing is often provided, but apartments frequently lack running water, reliable electricity, and proper sanitation.
Healthcare: Healthcare is theoretically free, but hospitals outside Pyongyang lack basic medicine, power, and equipment. This is why the DPRK has a life expectancy over 10 years lower than the ROK.
In the South, while not “guaranteed” like a socialist state promises, universal services are available and functional:
Healthcare: South Korea has a universal, mandatory health insurance system that is ranked among the best and most efficient in the world.
Public Transit: South Korea has world-class public transportation.
Housing/Jobs: While expensive and competitive, these sectors are functional and vastly superior in quality and choice.
Citing one CNN article about a handful of defectors (who usually return because they struggled to adapt to the ROK’s hyper-competitive capitalist society and faced extreme loneliness) as evidence that the system works is the definition of statistical noise.
The Total Scoreboard: 34,000+ people have escaped North Korea for the South. Less than 30 have publicly documented returning.
The “L” (loss) is firmly on the side of using the DPRK as a socialist success story. You can critique the ROK’s challenges without rewriting history for the North.
This is a spectacular attempt to shift blame. No serious historian blames the US trade embargo for the famine’s death toll.
No, it’s the basic fact of the situation which you, being the troll that you are, continue try to dance around.
This is a spectacular attempt to shift blame. No serious historian blames the US trade embargo for the famine’s death toll.
Yeah, no possible way being cut off from trade could affect the food supply in the country. If sanctions didn’t harm the populations of the target countries then the US wouldn’t be using them. Amazing how this basic detail escaped your genius mind.
Food was hoarded for the military and elite in Pyongyang while regional populations starved.
[citation needed]
A starving population that maintains its birth rate is not an economic win; it’s a social tragedy.
This is a classic defensive move when your system has an objectively pathetic GDP.
GDP is not a measure of quality of life as any economist would tell you. There are actual measures like PQL for that.
GDP and GDP per Capita are the standard, baseline metrics for comparing economic output. While they don’t capture happiness or inequality perfectly (that’s what the Human Development Index, HDI, is for), they absolutely measure the size of the pie a country has to divide.
Economic output has fuck all to do with the standard of living. In fact, you can have very high economic output as we see in occpupied Korea achieved through brutal exploitation of the working population.
This is outright false. The DPRK guarantees these things on paper, but the quality is nonexistent for the vast majority of the population:
It’s not, but you’ve already made it clear that you’ll just make things up and ignore facts.
What the south doesn’t have is guarantees of access. You do not have a job guarantee and without a job you have nothing. That’s the elephant in the room that you artlessly danced around.
The Total Scoreboard: 34,000+ people have escaped North Korea for the South. Less than 30 have publicly documented returning.
I’m not sure what the downvotes are for but I don’t think you proof read what you posted. Two of the paragraphs are almost identical.
The down votes are because you didn’t engage with the content and posted a reddit tier bot comment
Haha sure, OK I’ll bite:
“The DPRK successfully weathered the Arduous March in the 90s.”
This is arguably the most insane sentence in your post. Estimates range from 600,000 to 3 million deaths during that famine. A state that cannot feed its people to the point where 5-10% of the population starves to death has not “successfully weathered” anything; it has failed its most basic function. Framing mass starvation as “resilience” against US imperialism is incredibly disrespectful to the victims of that regime’s mismanagement.
“The North is seeing real growth and an optimistic mood… They are building a resilience that the South… completely lacks.”
Where is this data coming from?
South Korea GDP: ~$1.7 Trillion (13th in the world)
North Korea GDP: ~$25 Billion (roughly the size of Vermont’s economy)
Even with “growth” from selling artillery shells to Russia, the average North Korean lives on a fraction of the income of a South Korean. You talk about the “dirt spoon” class in the South—the poorest South Korean still has access to modern medicine, the internet, and a caloric intake that the average North Korean does not.
You are correctly identifying the symptoms of late-stage capitalism in the South (inequality, demographic collapse), but your proposed cure is worse than the disease. Pointing out that the South is a stressful “rat race” doesn’t change the fact that the North is an impoverished authoritarian state.
There is a reason 34,000 people have defected from North to South, and basically zero have gone the other way. People vote with their feet.
What part of the north having been dependent on the trade that the US cut them off from are you struggling with there? Most of the arable land land is in the south, and DPRK had to figure out how to produce food in the mountains. The fact that you call that mismanagement exposes that you’re a just a troll.
From the fact that people are actually having children in DPRK unlike in the south
Trying to use GDP to measure the quality of the economy is sheer idiocy and no serious economist would suggest doing that. In fact, GDP was never meant to do that.
People in DPRK have guaranteed housing, jobs, food, healthcare, and public transportation. None of these things are available to people in the south by default. Measuring income without accounting for the cost of living further illustrates just how utterly unequipped you are to discuss the subject you’re attempting to debate here.
Meanwhile in the real world https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/18/asia/north-korea-defectors-return-intl-hnk-dst
You’re an utter ignoramus and you have no business opining on the subject. Take the L and move on.
“What part of the north having been dependent on the trade that the US cut them off from are you struggling with there? Most of the arable land land is in the south, and DPRK had to figure out how to produce food in the mountains. The fact that you call that mismanagement exposes that you’re a just a troll.”
This is a spectacular attempt to shift blame. No serious historian blames the US trade embargo for the famine’s death toll.
The Cause of Death: The Soviet collapse (their main sponsor) and catastrophic internal mismanagement (specifically, the centrally planned Juche farming system) were the real killers. Food was hoarded for the military and elite in Pyongyang while regional populations starved.
Arable Land is a Red Herring: Yes, the South has more fertile land, but the North’s system of collectivization and its reliance on chemical fertilizers (which stopped coming from the USSR) led to soil depletion and systemic failure. The regime’s insistence on self-sufficiency (Juche) over efficient trade is the definition of mismanagement, regardless of US sanctions.
“From the fact that people are actually having children in DPRK unlike in the south… Since the early 1990s, the birth rate has been fairly stable, with an average of 2 children per woman…”
This is cherry-picking the least bad statistic to deflect from a humanitarian disaster.
Fact Check: A birth rate of 2.0 is right on the cusp of replacement level, which is better than the ROK’s 0.72. You are right about that number.
The Crucial Context: A stable birth rate doesn’t mean a healthy population. North Korea faces chronic malnutrition, which leads to stunting and long-term health issues in its young population. The quality of life for those children is drastically lower than for those in the South. A starving population that maintains its birth rate is not an economic win; it’s a social tragedy.
“Trying to use GDP to measure the quality of the economy is sheer idiocy and no serious economist would suggest doing that. In fact, GDP was never meant to do that.”
This is a classic defensive move when your system has an objectively pathetic GDP.
GDP and GDP per Capita are the standard, baseline metrics for comparing economic output. While they don’t capture happiness or inequality perfectly (that’s what the Human Development Index, HDI, is for), they absolutely measure the size of the pie a country has to divide.
HDI Check: When you use the HDI (which accounts for life expectancy, education, and standard of living), South Korea ranks high (usually top 25). North Korea’s data is so poor and unreliable that it is often excluded, but estimates place it among the lowest in the world, comparable to Sub-Saharan Africa.
“People in DPRK have guaranteed housing, jobs, food, healthcare, and public transportation. None of these things are available to people in the south by default.”
This is outright false. The DPRK guarantees these things on paper, but the quality is nonexistent for the vast majority of the population:
Food: Food security is a yearly crisis. “Guaranteed food” often means a subsistence ration (if that).
Housing: Housing is often provided, but apartments frequently lack running water, reliable electricity, and proper sanitation.
Healthcare: Healthcare is theoretically free, but hospitals outside Pyongyang lack basic medicine, power, and equipment. This is why the DPRK has a life expectancy over 10 years lower than the ROK.
In the South, while not “guaranteed” like a socialist state promises, universal services are available and functional:
Healthcare: South Korea has a universal, mandatory health insurance system that is ranked among the best and most efficient in the world.
Public Transit: South Korea has world-class public transportation.
Housing/Jobs: While expensive and competitive, these sectors are functional and vastly superior in quality and choice.
“Meanwhile in the real world https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/18/asia/north-korea-defectors-return-intl-hnk-dst”
Citing one CNN article about a handful of defectors (who usually return because they struggled to adapt to the ROK’s hyper-competitive capitalist society and faced extreme loneliness) as evidence that the system works is the definition of statistical noise.
The Total Scoreboard: 34,000+ people have escaped North Korea for the South. Less than 30 have publicly documented returning.
The “L” (loss) is firmly on the side of using the DPRK as a socialist success story. You can critique the ROK’s challenges without rewriting history for the North.
No, it’s the basic fact of the situation which you, being the troll that you are, continue try to dance around.
Yeah, no possible way being cut off from trade could affect the food supply in the country. If sanctions didn’t harm the populations of the target countries then the US wouldn’t be using them. Amazing how this basic detail escaped your genius mind.
[citation needed]
Except that north is no longer starving, while food insecurity is a real problem in the south which your own bleatings claim has a better economic situation 🤡 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12939-023-01937-z
GDP is not a measure of quality of life as any economist would tell you. There are actual measures like PQL for that.
Economic output has fuck all to do with the standard of living. In fact, you can have very high economic output as we see in occpupied Korea achieved through brutal exploitation of the working population.
It’s not, but you’ve already made it clear that you’ll just make things up and ignore facts.
What the south doesn’t have is guarantees of access. You do not have a job guarantee and without a job you have nothing. That’s the elephant in the room that you artlessly danced around.
Sure little buddy. You keep on believing that.